Spiritual Question 2

Does God exist ?

Possible answers:

  1. Yes
  2. No
  3. Maybe
  4. Lots of gods exist; which one do you mean?
  5. I am God.
  6. We are all gods.
  7. Some of us will become gods.

We are still a long ways from my conception of God. I am simply probing about the other potential replies. Did I miss any options?

There are lots of people who would answer “yes” to Spiritual Question 1 (is there such a thing as a spiritual aspect to human existence?), but would answer “no” to this question.

I think Buddhists would answer “no,” possibly with qualifications. Jedis would give a similar answer. So would many New-Agers.

Agnostics and lots of New-Agers and “seekers” would answer “maybe.”

Pagans would give answer # 4, though some Neo-Pagans might answer #6, or even perhaps # 7. Mormons would be likely to answer both # 1 and # 7.

Theists and Deists answer “yes.” Is there anyone who would answer “yes” who could not be described as a Theist or a Deist?

What do y’all say ?

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127 thoughts on “Spiritual Question 2”

  1. EThompson:

    MJBubba:
    So, when you talk about “Judeo-Christian principles,” you don’t mean principles from Jewish or Christian sources, you are simply talking about the Declaration?

    Don’t put words in my mouth, sir. I believe in #5-10 of the Commandments that also appear in Jewish scripture. The Declaration should be Commandment #11.

    Do those Commandments have any intrinsic authority, or do they only apply because you like them?

    On what basis do you choose some Commandments and reject others?

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  2. KayofMT:
    So we will still have a soul that lives when we die. Where we go, what happens, I have no idea.

    Do you think there are any worthwhile insights regarding the afterlife in the Jewish Scriptures  ?

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  3. (I disagree with your thoughts on Job, but I learned after many quarrels at R> not to argue with a Jew about Old Testament books.)

    Good thing you did, because I could come up with some more arguments. Those were not my thoughts but Rabbi Kushner’s. The first 5 book of the Bible we can’t mess with, that is Law and the recordings of Moses. Rest of the old testament is divided into The Prophets (greater and leaser) and The writings. Job is the 3rd book in Writings after the Psalms and Proverbs. Anyway, no need to contradict a Rabbi about a book written some 2500 years ago.

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  4. MJBubba:

    EThompson:
    The Deist perspective: a belief in a God who created the world and inspired important Judeo-Christian values but has remained removed from our actions and expects us to carry the load henceforth.

    This just makes sense to me so my answer is yes.

    What makes you think that the God who designed and built creation has no interest in what happens to His creatures or how it turns out ?

    So says the car of the carmaker, right before the next model year.

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  5. MJBubba:

    KayofMT:
    So we will still have a soul that lives when we die. Where we go, what happens, I have no idea.

    Do you think there are any worthwhile insights regarding the afterlife in the Jewish Scriptures  ?

    No. Jewish Scriptures do not dwell on an afterlife. It is the here and now that is important. What we do now, how we treat our neighbors, good deeds, looking after the land and animals is important.

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  6. KayofMT:

    MJBubba:

    KayofMT:
    So we will still have a soul that lives when we die. Where we go, what happens, I have no idea.

    Do you think there are any worthwhile insights regarding the afterlife in the Jewish Scriptures  ?

    No. Jewish Scriptures do not dwell on an afterlife. It is the here and now that is important. What we do now, how we treat our neighbors, good deeds, looking after the land and animals is important.

    Is worship important also ?

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  7. Haakon Dahl:

    MJBubba:

    EThompson:
    The Deist perspective: a belief in a God who created the world and inspired important Judeo-Christian values but has remained removed from our actions and expects us to carry the load henceforth.

    This just makes sense to me so my answer is yes.

    What makes you think that the God who designed and built creation has no interest in what happens to His creatures or how it turns out ?

    So says the car of the carmaker, right before the next model year.

    Haakon, you spoke up for “maybe.”   Don’t you think that if there is a car there is probably a carmaker ?

    What sort of evidence would persuade you that the Carmaker is real?

    How about witness testimony?   How many witnesses does it take in order for you to accept any witness testimony at all?

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  8. MJBubba:
    Haakon, you spoke up for “maybe.”   Don’t you think that if there is a car there is probably a carmaker ?

    In the case of cars, yes.  In the case of glaciers, no.

    What sort of evidence would persuade you that the Carmaker is real?

    No matter what evidence is required, religion responds “Well, God doesn’t work that way.”  This is a pointless line of inquiry.

    How about witness testimony? How many witnesses does it take in order for you to accept any witness testimony at all?

    How many witnesses to Trump’s misdeeds will convince you?

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  9. MJBubba:

    EThompson:

    MJBubba:
    So, when you talk about “Judeo-Christian principles,” you don’t mean principles from Jewish or Christian sources, you are simply talking about the Declaration?

    Don’t put words in my mouth, sir. I believe in #5-10 of the Commandments that also appear in Jewish scripture. The Declaration should be Commandment #11.

    Do those Commandments have any intrinsic authority, or do they only apply because you like them?

    On what basis do you choose some Commandments and reject others?

    Those commandments were chosen because I believe there is a right and a wrong way to live a life. This was the way I was brought up, that in turn, was based upon Judeo-Christian values. I’ve also seen the consequences when you don’t live by them. There is both spiritual and practical meaning to them.

    I didn’t include #1-4 because they were not particularly related to my Deist beliefs.

    And although I’ve thoroughly enjoyed our discussion and I appreciate your thoughts, let us move on to other subjects.

    You’ve exhausted me! 🙂 (And not many people can make that claim.)

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  10. EThompson:

    MJBubba:

    EThompson:

    MJBubba:
    So, when you talk about “Judeo-Christian principles,” you don’t mean principles from Jewish or Christian sources, you are simply talking about the Declaration?

    Don’t put words in my mouth, sir. I believe in #5-10 of the Commandments that also appear in Jewish scripture. The Declaration should be Commandment #11.

    Do those Commandments have any intrinsic authority, or do they only apply because you like them?

    On what basis do you choose some Commandments and reject others?

    Those commandments were chosen because I believe there is a right and a wrong way to live a life. This was the way I was brought up, that in turn, was based upon Judeo-Christian values. I’ve also seen the consequences when you don’t live by them. There is both spiritual and practical meaning to them.

    I didn’t include #1-4 because they were not particularly related to my Deist beliefs.

    And although I’ve thoroughly enjoyed our discussion and I appreciate your thoughts, let us move on to other subjects.

    You’ve exhausted me! 🙂 (And not many people can make that claim.)

    Well, OK for now.

    But just one more thing.   You said

    There is both spiritual and practical meaning to [the Commandments you like].”

    I would really like to hear you elaborate on the spiritual meaning.

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  11. Haakon Dahl:

    MJBubba:
    Haakon, you spoke up for “maybe.”   Don’t you think that if there is a car there is probably a carmaker ?

    In the case of cars, yes.  In the case of glaciers, no.

    How about in the case of a living cell ?

    What sort of evidence would persuade you that the Carmaker is real?

    No matter what evidence is required, religion responds “Well, God doesn’t work that way.”  This is a pointless line of inquiry.

    But I am not asking for your religious response.   I am asking about your irreligious response.

    And, if I tell you that God works some other way than you imagine, will you listen?

    How about witness testimony? How many witnesses does it take in order for you to accept any witness testimony at all?

    How many witnesses to Trump’s misdeeds will convince you?

    That depends on the misdeeds in question.

    As to some sexual sins, Trump has owned up to enough of that activity to establish that he has a history of sexual sins.   No further witnesses are needed, unless the women involved want to contest his description of them all as mutually consensual.

    As to some past sins involved with his business dealings from 2015 and earlier, some are very old and well-documented, including witness testimonies.   Others may yet emerge, but they are currently in investigations by the State of New York and the Federal District of Southern NY.   If they press charges, then I presume they will present credible evidence, including witnesses.

    As to alleged sins involved in the 2016 campaign, I am unaware of any direct witness testimony to substantiate any of those allegations.   In fact there was not enough evidence for him to be charged and brought to trial.   I am satisfied for now with that state of affairs.

    As to alleged sins in office, I am only aware of crass and crude behavior.   I have not heard any credible allegations, but have only heard speculations made in bad faith.   But I would be willing to consider the testimony of a single witness if the situation warrants.

    Now let us get past the diversion/distraction of President Trump’s activities, though the characterization of some of his activities as “sin” is a topic I will want to return to.

    How about witnesses of spiritual activity?   How about witnesses to miracles?   How many witnesses does it take to establish that there is such a thing as a spiritual aspect to human existence?   How many witnesses would be suitable to establish that God exists?

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  12. MJBubba:
    But just one more thing.   You said “There is both spiritual and practical meaning to [the Commandments you like].” I would really like to hear you elaborate on the spiritual meaning.

    You do get points for persistence so I will give you the courtesy of one last response and I’m going to quote Justice Potter Stewart who was remarking on a completely different subject. 🙂

    “I know it when I see it.”

    I can’t separate the the spiritual and the pragmatic because if you follow the commandments, the result is likely the same: a happy, productive and well-lived life that contributes to the well-being of all of society.

    It really is that simple for me. People make it far more complicated than it need be.

    The End.

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  13. MJBubba:
    Why not? The rabbis quarrel and contradict each other all the time. 0

    They don’t quarrel about the existence of G-d. They quarrel about what this prophet said or that other prophet, what this or that was meant. Even about what Rabbi meant what in such and such an era. Join a Torah study group, they will be glad to have you, you argue so well.

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  14. KayofMT:

    MJBubba:
    Why not? The rabbis quarrel and contradict each other all the time. 0

    They don’t quarrel about the existence of G-d. They quarrel about what this prophet said or that other prophet, what this or that was meant. Even about what Rabbi meant what in such and such an era. Join a Torah study group, they will be glad to have you, you argue so well.

    Kay, did you ever read Chaim Potok’s well-known novel The Chosen?

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  15. EThompson:
    Kay, did you ever read Chaim Potok’s well-known novel The Chosen?

    Of course, it’s sitting on a shelf of my book case. I have several of his books, by the way. It’s been a while since I’ve read read it, so will go get it and start re-reading.

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  16. KayofMT:

    EThompson:
    Kay, did you ever read Chaim Potok’s well-known novel The Chosen?

    Of course, it’s sitting on a shelf of my book case. I have several of his books, by the way. It’s been a while since I’ve read read it, so will go get it and start re-reading.

    Could you pls recommend more of his books that you think a shiksa would like? I loved The Chosen.

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  17. KayofMT:

    MJBubba:
    Why not? The rabbis quarrel and contradict each other all the time. 0

    They don’t quarrel about the existence of G-d. They quarrel about what this prophet said or that other prophet, what this or that was meant. Even about what Rabbi meant what in such and such an era. Join a Torah study group, they will be glad to have you, you argue so well.

    The thing I found unsatisfying was the way they went way off in the weeds to show that some particular Hebrew word could potentially have an alternate meaning than the plain meaning, and then spin longwinded theories about how that alternate meaning would imply the opposite of the plain meaning.

    They were similar to but not as bad as Muslims, who won’t argue with you at all about their holy books unless the entire argument is in Arabic.

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  18. MJBubba:
    The thing I found unsatisfying was the way they went way off in the weeds to show that some particular Hebrew word could potentially have an alternate meaning than the plain meaning, and then spin longwinded theories about how that alternate meaning would imply the opposite of the plain meaning.

    What? Hebrew is over 4,000 years old, so do you think English Words haven’t changed their meanings over the years? I have copies of Wills from the 16th and 17th centuries that I cannot decipher. Have you ever tried to read “Canterbury Tales” in the original?

    Of course they argue over the meanings of Hebrew words, because nobody really knows, except a few experts. Gives them something to do rather slaughter each other as the muslims do. Here is a web site that is interesting:

    https://goddidntsaythat.com/

    Dr. Joel M. Hoffman is the translator. He has a blog roll, a number of books, etc.

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  19. EThompson:

    KayofMT:

    EThompson:
    Kay, did you ever read Chaim Potok’s well-known novel The Chosen?

    Of course, it’s sitting on a shelf of my book case. I have several of his books, by the way. It’s been a while since I’ve read read it, so will go get it and start re-reading.

    a shiksa

    Don’t ever use that word again in reference to yourself. Not a nice word and in reality, an insult.

    Shiksa (Yiddish: שיקסע ‎, is an often disparaging term for a non-Jewish woman or girl. The word, which is of Yiddish origin, has moved into English usage (as well as Polish and German), mostly in North American Jewish culture.

    A cousin, born a Jew, is writing a book about Yiddish, she is an expert and informed me that when my husband called me his precious little “Shiksa” he was actually insulting me, as an ignorant, unacknowledged gentile.

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  20. Chaim Potlk wrote “The Book of Lights” about 2 young men who decided to go the way of Kabbalah, a book of mysticism and visions, truth and light.

    Another: My Name is Asher Lev.

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  21. KayofMT:
    A cousin, born a Jew, is writing a book about Yiddish, she is an expert and informed me that when my husband called me his precious little “Shiksa” he was actually insulting me, as an ignorant, unacknowledged gentile.

    Oh dear; some of my NYC Jewish friends have been calling me this for years in an affectionate manner. I was aware that it originated as an offensive term but I think New Yorkers have different perceptions of what constitutes an insult. 🙂

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  22. EThompson:
    Oh dear; some of my NYC Jewish friends have been calling me this for years in an affectionate manner. I was aware that it originated as an offensive term but I think New Yorkers have different perceptions of what constitutes an insult. 🙂

    My husband was born in NYC 1927, raised in the Bronx and Queens, Graduated from High school at 16 and went into the Merchant Marines in 1943. An Officer by 1945. I met him in Los Angeles in 1960. When he called me “his darling little shiksa in a very sexy voice” I thought it was a term of endearment. Foolish me. Turns out he was calling about 3 other ladies the same thing at the same time. You are a beautiful, intelligent, knowledgeable woman, don’t let anyone call you “shiksa” again. Tell them you prefer being called a “dumb blond” and they will understand.

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  23. KayofMT:
    Tell them you prefer being called a “dumb blond” and they will understand.

    That’s a tough one as well but thanks for your concern. Also, thanks for sharing the heat with our resident religious scholar. He’s tough and relentless but should consider this description a compliment as it took two of us to handle him !!

    Again, it’s so nice to have you back.

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  24. Handle Him ?  He drew you out of your spiritual shell. I am glad he did for I understand you more fully. A gracious man only gives the appearance of being handled. 😉

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