An unwanted conversation

MJBubba:

Ms. H.:
I will argue with anyone who purports to know.  No one does.

What proof or authority are you using to make this pronouncement ?

That  I will argue?  My personal authority.

I think when you use your personal authority regarding spiritual matters that you are putting yourself onto really thin spiritual ice.

That no one knows?  Oh, come on!!!Because no human that I have ever encountered, nor heard tell of, …

Of course you have heard tell; you have simply decided to reject the testimony of the witnesses.

…remembers where or what he or she was before birth.

Are you now talking of reincarnation? The spiritual confusion compounds.

Nor has any  human being ever returned from death  to tell us what that’s like.

That’s my “proof” that  no living human knows about God.

Once again you are rejecting the testimony of the witnesses.

Now, in the OT, you didn’t need faith: God would come take you on a picnic, like He did with the Hebrew elders on Sinai. He’d do tricks like he did for Gideon! He’d incinerate people, like Aaron’s sons— and animal carcasses, like he did in the contest with Baal.

You can scoff and mock all you like. There are eternal consequences.

But now, I think you’d have to agree, we see through a glass darkly.  We do not know.

Agreeing that our knowledge is limited is very different from insisting that we have no knowledge at all. I reject your premise that says the only acceptable witness testimony is your own.

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11 thoughts on “An unwanted conversation”

  1. Great! The discussion can continue here and the other thread can go into the direction the author wanted.

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  2. MJB, may I join you in unwelcome status by continuing both threads of that conversaton here?  That is, no topic at hand, and my (currently in-progress) response to your witness question.  We could call this one the thread where the stuffing comes out of the bear.  The reason is that (as I say in the upcoming response) I gave a rhetorical response to your “witness” quesiton, because your thread on belief did not seem like the place for a firmer response.  I did not wish to barge your thread.

    So is this the place?  🙂

    EDIT:  I know it’s the middle of the darned night in the States.  I responded on your “Spiritual Question 2” thread.

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  3. I’m trying to control my cyber-temper in response to this personal attack.  I don’t want to fall into the trap I fell into at R>.

    I will point out:

    surely, I  am the ultimate authority as to my own actions: specifically, as to the fact that I will continue to argue.  That was the issue on which I asserted “personal authority”: my own intentions.

    Actual witnesses: Name one.

    ”Scoffing” at the OT stories: I wasn’t.  Each of those incidents I mentioned is recounted in the Old Testament.  As you very well know.  (Or are you saying  that you  don’t believe they happened?)

    And  pace @10cents, I am not finding this development “great”.  I would never make fun  of, nor presume to harangue, a devout Christian.  I have never made fun of you; I’ve told you often in various comments that I understand where you’re coming from: I’m from there too. And I’d appreciate the same courtesy.

    “Thin spiritual ice.”?  “Eternal consequences”?   This is not your Sunday school class. Stick to “asserting your  personal authority regarding spiritual matters”  in that forum, where you can swagger around in front  of a buncha captive adolescents.

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  4. I find the Bible to be a fount of wisdom. However, I cannot treat the OT as a historical document.

    I suppose, God sent angels to clean up after the Jews during the Exodus, but it seems more likely to me the stories told there are meant to impart wisdom about Man’s relationship with God, and less “This is exactly how it happend”.

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  5. Bryan G. Stephens:
    I find the Bible to be a fount of wisdom. However, I cannot treat the OT as a historical document.

    I suppose, God sent angels to clean up after the Jews during the Exodus, but it seems more likely to me the stories told there are meant to impart wisdom about Man’s relationship with God, and less “This is exactly how it happend”.

    If you believe in the miracle at Cana, why not  in the Red  Sea parting, Gideon’s fleece, etc?

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  6. Hypatia:

    Bryan G. Stephens:
    I find the Bible to be a fount of wisdom. However, I cannot treat the OT as a historical document.

    I suppose, God sent angels to clean up after the Jews during the Exodus, but it seems more likely to me the stories told there are meant to impart wisdom about Man’s relationship with God, and less “This is exactly how it happend”.

    If you believe in the miracle at Cana, why not  in the Red  Sea parting, Gideon’s fleece, etc?

    I am not sure what the miracle at Cana is so I cannot own it.

    As far as the OT is concerned, It does not line up with the world. U-238 has a known, measurable half life. We have deposits we can age, and the world is a lot older than the Bible says it is. That says nothing for the rest of the geological record.

    There is no record at all of a great mass of people just up and leaving Egypt. Further, in a part of the world where human traces go back thousands of years, we see no sign of those people wandering about. In a place where a night’s camp can be found ages later, not one bit of trash. Nothing. Nada. Zilcho.

    In fact, it is those who try to make belief dependent on claims like that, who drove me from faith the first time. It is asking me to believe a story of wisdom is instead a recording of facts. No, I can accept the distilled wisdom of the story, and indeed, Exodus is one of my favorites. In fact, it directly addresses how miracles cannot be used to support faith, because we don’t believe them. Its right there with the golden calf, among other things.

    So, my faith does not require God to be so limited that our scientific understanding of the universe has to be wrong, just so it links up with a bronze age people’s understanding of the world. They were not trying to be scientific, they were trying to tell a story of wisdom.

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  7. Evening has fallen on a beautiful cool sunny day and I’m blissed out by a horseback ride we just returned from.

    So, a couple loose ends:

    Bryan, you do know the miracle at Cana—the water Jesus turned into wine!

    And : I’m ashamed of my anger this morning.  It just seems silly to me now, and I apologize, MJB for my harshness in comment 3

    Good night to all.”As you from crimes would pardoned be,/Let your indulgence set me  free!”

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  8. Bubba, I thought you wanted to have a conversation. Do I need to put up a thread called “Unwanted Conversation Part II: This time it’s impersonal”? 🙂

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  9. Hypatia:
    Evening has fallen on a beautiful cool sunny day and I’m blissed out by a horseback ride we just returned from.

    So, a couple loose ends:

    Bryan, you do know the miracle at Cana—the water Jesus turned into wine!

    And : I’m ashamed of my anger this morning.  It just seems silly to me now, and I apologize, MJB for my harshness in comment 3

    Good night to all.”As you from crimes would pardoned be,/Let your indulgence set me  free!”

    Oh. Well, there I not a ton of counter evidence on that one.

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