“Death to the West!”

I can’t remember how to spell the name of the Al  (Awahiri?Waheeeri?)   who  took the opportunity yesterday to call for another 9/11 style attack.  Who cares?  They’re “Al” the same to me….but I understand he’s one of the 9/11 “masterminds” with whom we haven’t caught up.

(Not like Khalid sheik Mohammed, whose life we have carefully and respectfully preserved for 18 years now—and he hasn’t even been sentenced to death!  If he is, of course, that’ll pretty much guarantee his eventual quietus from old age:”natural causes” is the most common cause of death for denizens of Death Row.)

But I’m just writing to remind you that “Death to the West!”, coming from a Muslim, is a suicide note.  Or at least, parricide.

If Judaism and Christianity are “Western” religions, then so is Islam.

The Koran reads like somebody read, or was told, all the stories from the Old and New Testaments and then had a zany,  mixed-up dream about ‘em.  Which, by all,accounts, is pretty much what happened.

It’s fun, (or it used to be, before the syncretistic stepchild turned murderous), to compare the creation stories, the Satan/Iblis stories , Job, those  lusty, crafty patriarchs, as recounted in the OT and the Koran; to pick out the folkloric elements and variations thereon.    But the fact remains, the OT Is older, much older, and Mohammed  was just recapping and embroidering texts which had been familiar to his audience for generations.

And guess who is the most frequently referenced character in the Koran!  Our old Friend: Isa ibn Maryam. (Jesus!)

In the OT, there’s a passage when the Law is given where the people are directed  as to how to deal with a son who has turned out to be bad, worthless, shiftless, non-productive:  call the High Priest, take the disappointing offspring to the city gates, denounce his transgressions, and:

stone him to death.

Selah. 

2+

Users who have liked this post:

  • avatar
  • avatar

29 thoughts on ““Death to the West!””

  1. Mix-up, indeed.  The most revered person in Islam, Mohammad, led a life that can be described as the epitome of evil, by Christian and Jewish standards.  And by the standards of just about every other major religion in the world.  That is why the most dangerous Muslims have been the richest and best-educated Muslims.  Like the 19 terrorists of 9/11 infamy.

    3+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  2. Phil, I reckon you mean the child-bride,  and the murderous military campaigns?

    About the pre-teen Aisha, his first wife, Khadijah, remarked when he told her Allah had commanded him to take her to his bed:”Truly, your God is quick to do your bidding!”

    He makes Napoleon look like a pacifist: in the decade between the Hegira  and his death, he led 15 military campaigns, the purpose of which was to force the unfortunate defending population  to “submit” and embrace the tenets of his idiosyncratic pastiche , or be beheaded.

    3+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  3. There is a website called ( http://www.citizenwarrior.com/) that goes in depths on all matters of Islam, their deceit and why. There will never be peace on this planet until ever last muslam is dead or every last non-muslim is converted or dead.

    3+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  4. BTW Hypatia, according to numerous Jewish sources, there has never been an unruly child that deserves to be stoned to death, so this command has never been used. However, it is a favorite quote to determine what hateful people the Jews are to stone their children to death. In any case, it would never have been used unless the whole contingent of the 70 judges had agreed.

    1+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
  5. Hypatia:
    Phil, I reckon you mean the child-bride, and the murderous military campaigns?

    Those, plus the repeated breaking of negotiated agreements.  The word of a Muslim to any of us infidels simply cannot be trusted.  There’s even a special word for this: taqiyya.

    4+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  6. The first mistake is to consider islam a religion. It is an ideology with religious overtones.

    The second is to take it seriously. Like every good con, it has elements of truth, the better to sell the lie. Mohammed, THE most perfect muslim, was a caravan raider, a thief, a torturer, rapist, and all-around scoundrel – and a pedophile (might as well be “well rounded” in your bad guy credentials).

    Note that islam is a way of government that uses religious sanctions to police the rules of the government. Note that much of what today is considered islamic is no where to be seen in any of the islamic texts. Like hijabs. Note that the official story is that God first gave “the book” to the Jews, who messed up. Then he gave it to the Christians, who messed up. THEN he gave it to Mohammad – who got it right because he literally translated all God said to him. Never mind the clear inconsistencies, the directly opposing ideas, the general lack of morals. For a god, Allah doesn’t seem to think very clearly.

    Even a cursory view of islam reveals that Allah is nothing like Jehovah. Other than being omniscient and omnipotent, he has no similar (or redeeming) features. But he has a distinct similarity to the Tempter. Funny how that comes out.

    We should therefore be leery of any and all things muslim. If they sound horrible, they are most likely islamic tenants; if they sound good, they are islamic lies.

    3+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  7. Devereaux:
    The first mistake is to consider islam a religion. It is an ideology with religious overtones.

    I get your point, but this is not helpful.

    Of course Islam is a religion.   It is a religion that has built-in political policies and judicial system and educational system and financial system requirements on adherents.   Islam is a religion that dictates and confines every aspect of human life.

    The interesting thing about Islam is that, while it puts up guardrails that confine adherents into narrow lanes, it is relatively unconcerned about character.  So long as a Muslim says the prescribed prayers, gives something to Muslim charities, attends Friday prayers and fasts during Ramadan, then they are bound for paradise.   They can indulge in all sorts of behaviors and attitudes that we would think are shocking for religious people.

    This springs from a twisted understanding of the Creator.   In Islam, Allah’s decrees are good because they come from Allah.   This is the opposite of Judaism and Christianity, which say that G-d’s decrees are good because He is good.

    And, in fact, Jewish and Christian teachings about G-d’s commands are that He wants people to be good and to do good to each other, whereas in Islam it does not matter if adherents do good; the only important thing is if they are obedient.

    4+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  8. MJBubba:
    Of course Islam is a religion.

    I respectfully disagree. The Prophet Mohammed was the Gengis Khan of his time and made up rules to satisfy personal whims:

    1. Military recruiting: 22 vestal virgins awaiting you for accomplishing jihad.

    2. Pedophilia. He had many wives; one of them was 6 and another was 8 years old. This is truly the definition of evil.

    3. The desire to establish a global caliphate.

    4. Charging interest on borrowed money is a sin. How convenient!

    Nothing holy or spiritual about these rules. Islam is a cult and takes advantage of man’s worst instincts. It sickens me.

    2+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
  9. MJBubba:

    Devereaux:
    The first mistake is to consider islam a religion. It is an ideology with religious overtones.

    I get your point, but this is not helpful.

    Of course Islam is a religion.   It is a religion that has built-in political policies and judicial system and educational system and financial system requirements on adherents.   Islam is a religion that dictates and confines every aspect of human life.

    ….

    This springs from a twisted understanding of the Creator.   In Islam, Allah’s decrees are good because they come from Allah.   This is the opposite of Judaism and Christianity, which say that G-d’s decrees are good because He is good.

    And, in fact, Jewish and Christian teachings about G-d’s commands are that He wants people to be good and to do good to each other, whereas in Islam it does not matter if adherents do good; the only important thing is if they are obedient.

    Even more to the point, Allah doesn’t care whether people love him, obey him, or anything. He is quixotic in whether he will accept one into his paradise. PERHAPS if you’ve done something to particularly please or honour him you MIGHT.

    Consider communism. It, too, dictates and confines every aspect of human life. Check out NorKo for the ultimate expression of communism. Not notably different from islam.

    3+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  10. EThompson:

    MJBubba:
    Of course Islam is a religion.

    I respectfully disagree. The Prophet Mohammed was the Gengis Khan of his time and made up rules to satisfy personal whims:

    1. Military recruiting: 22 vestal virgins awaiting you for accomplishing jihad.

    The virgins of paradise that are the award for death while waging jihad is a religious prophecy.

    2. Pedophilia. He had many wives; one of them was 6 and another was 8 years old. This is truly the definition of evil.

    The fact that pedophilia is permitted is simply another indication that Islam is a religion that does not take into account such matters as good and evil.

    3. The desire to establish a global caliphate.

    That is a religious commandment from Allah, who, says Mohammed, desires that all people come into submission to Islam.

    4. Charging interest on borrowed money is a sin. How convenient!

    The Bible also has harsh words for usury, but did expect that interest would be involved in borrowing and lending.   The Bible simply cautions that borrowing should be avoided.   This difference is only a matter of degree.

    Nothing holy or spiritual about these rules. Islam is a cult and takes advantage of man’s worst instincts. It sickens me.

    Islam has religious rules that disregard attributes like good and evil.   Islam is a religion that is primarily concerned with submission (peace) or non-submission (war).

    3+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  11. Devereaux:

    MJBubba:

    Devereaux:
    The first mistake is to consider islam a religion. It is an ideology with religious overtones.

    I get your point, but this is not helpful.

    Of course Islam is a religion.   It is a religion that has built-in political policies and judicial system and educational system and financial system requirements on adherents.   Islam is a religion that dictates and confines every aspect of human life.

    ….

    This springs from a twisted understanding of the Creator.   In Islam, Allah’s decrees are good because they come from Allah.   This is the opposite of Judaism and Christianity, which say that G-d’s decrees are good because He is good.

    And, in fact, Jewish and Christian teachings about G-d’s commands are that He wants people to be good and to do good to each other, whereas in Islam it does not matter if adherents do good; the only important thing is if they are obedient.

    Even more to the point, Allah doesn’t care whether people love him, obey him, or anything. He is quixotic in whether he will accept one into his paradise. PERHAPS if you’ve done something to particularly please or honour him you MIGHT.

    But Islam is all about obedience.   That is the key to Islam.

    Submit, or die.

    Consider communism. It, too, dictates and confines every aspect of human life. Check out NorKo for the ultimate expression of communism. Not notably different from islam.

    Communism is a branch of Leftism, which is a religion.   This is why Communists and other Leftists are so hostile to Christianity.

    I agree, there are several important parallels between Communism and Islam, but there are also large differences.   The differences are what puzzle so many western conservatives as to why Leftists are so happy to carry water for Islam.   The reason, of course, is that both the Left and Islam are locked in a deadly struggle against Christianity.

    Both Leftism and Islam are, at core, reactions against Christianity.

    4+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  12. Hypatia:
    …I’m just writing to remind you that “Death to the West!”, coming from a Muslim, is a suicide note.  Or at least, parricide.

    If Judaism and Christianity are “Western” religions, then so is Islam.

    The Koran reads like somebody read, or was told, all the stories from the Old and New Testaments and then had a zany,  mixed-up dream about ‘em.  Which, by all,accounts, is pretty much what happened.

    Well, Islam is much more Eastern than the West.   For example, individual liberties are not a thing in Islam.

    The Koran includes Mohammed’s teachings about how Christianity is wrong.   That is one way to know that the Koran is not from an omnicient G-d, since it describes Christianity in ways that are not correct descriptions of Christianity.   One of the most commonly cited errors is that the Koran says that the Christian Trinity is Father, Mary and Jesus, whereas Christian Trinitarian teaching has always been that the Trinity is Father, Holy Spirit and Jesus.   There are other errors about Christianity.

    The Hadith say that Mohammed learned about Christianity from his Aunt.   As near as anyone can tell, neither one ever saw a Bible.   Best guess is that she was acquainted with the Nestorian heresy, and poorly catechized at that.

    2+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
  13. MJBubba:
    Islam has religious rules that disregard attributes like good and evil.

    Then what the heck is your definition of religion? It appears we do not share the same interpretation so I googled it:

    What is the best definition of religion?

    a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

    So technically speaking you are correct; Islam totally defines as one.

    3+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  14. I’ve been reading this series and frankly I find it not helpful.

    Every religion has definitions of good and evil; islam does not.

    Every religion has prescriptions of righteous behavior; islam does not.

    Every religion has the way to heaven; islam does not. (Allah is quixotic. He may reward those who please him but overall he has no regard for humans or their acts/ways. Yes there is peace/war but even those are loosely held, to be adapted to whatever is useful at the moment.

    Recognize that the origins of islam were in nomadic peoples, a subsistence society. In such societies, absolute authority of the leader are essential to survival. It is the definition of plenty that one has “freedom” which can be translated into the right to try things that might fail. Failure can be tolerated because of excess production which allows the society to survive despite failure within it.

    So I still don’t see islam as a religion except in the most loose possible definition. Ideology fits much better for me; perhaps not you. But I see no reason to give it religious status, especially within our society. I would not persecute muslims who adhere to our way of living, but then I’m a Christian, and tolerance is a hallmark of Christianity. Few of the freedoms we take for granted exist outside of a Christian framework.

    2+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
  15. Devereaux:
    I’ve been reading this series and frankly I find it not helpful.

    Every religion has definitions of good and evil; islam does not.

    Every religion has prescriptions of righteous behavior; islam does not.

    Every religion has the way to heaven; islam does not. (Allah is quixotic. He may reward those who please him but overall he has no regard for humans or their acts/ways. Yes there is peace/war but even those are loosely held, to be adapted to whatever is useful at the moment.

    So I still don’t see islam as a religion except in the most loose possible definition. Ideology fits much better for me; perhaps not you. But I see no reason to give it religious status, especially within our society. …

    What is not helpful is trying to insist that Islam is not a “real religion.”

    It is very good to recognize the many defects of Islam, and you clearly have a grasp on this.   You can see why many of us refer to Islam as a “counterfeit religion.”

    But when you go about insisting that a movement with 1.7 billion followers is not a religion, you are immediately dismissed as Islamophobic, and most Americans will tune you out; you will have no input into the conversation.

    2+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
  16. Conversations are started one at a time. I will admit I swim against the mainstream vis a vis how we see islam, but I also swim against the mainstream vis a vis liberty – I believe in it, and most today don’t seem to grasp it (Rand Paul excepted perhaps). Somewhere sometime this conversation must be started. The sooner the better. We left out this kind of conversation about how our kids were schooled and were it not for the fact I’m an old curmudgeon and vocal about the house, my kids would probably be lefties. They aren’t thank goodness, but it took ranting my me about things to get an impression against the pressure of school.

    So we are here, talking. Perhaps some of what we say we can take out into the world. My friends tend to be cops and Marines. We don’t all think alike but many of us have similar thoughts. Having these kinds of discussions helps move some of them towards “the light”.

    I don’t expect to move the hearts & minds of 1.7. billion muslims. I expect to start moving the minds of some Americans, and hope they then move the minds of other Americans until one day we start having a more realistic view of islam – which we don’t seem to today. The politicians are less important. They are like the flags along side a rifle range – showing the wind. It’s the wind itself that we need to slowly affect.

    3+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  17. Devereaux:
    I’ve been reading this series and frankly I find it not helpful.

    I understand how you feel because Islam has many evil aspects to it and as MLR noted, needs to be destroyed. Unfortunately, due to the many numbers of Muslims in this world, that is unlikely.

    Christians and Jews have been raised to believe that religion is a set of beliefs that promote good and tolerance but MJB is right; belief systems exist that promote the opposite and do by definition qualify as a religion. ):

    But the term “religion” is not sacrosanct and is almost irrelevant. It is the value system that counts.

    4+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
    • avatar
  18. Devereaux:

    MJBubba:

    Devereaux:
    The first mistake is to consider islam a religion. It is an ideology with religious overtones.

    I get your point, but this is not helpful.

    Of course Islam is a religion.   It is a religion that has built-in political policies and judicial system and educational system and financial system requirements on adherents.   Islam is a religion that dictates and confines every aspect of human life.

    yes I agree it’s a religion….so effin* what?  If we say “all religions are worthy of our respect”we’re sayin they’re all a buncha hooey .( Fine with me…) 

    ….

    This springs from a twisted understanding of the Creator.   In Islam, Allah’s decrees are good because they come from Allah.   This is the opposite of Judaism and Christianity, which say that G-d’s decrees are good because He is good.

    uh..exactly how are your second and fourth sentences different?  In the OT, “righteousness” is obey ing Jahweh, , even if He commands you to kill your son, slaughter every last man woman and child and animal of the enemy tribe.

    And, in fact, Jewish and Christian teachings about G-d’s commands are that He wants people to be good and to do good to each other, whereas in Islam it does not matter if adherents do good; the only important thing is if they are obedient.

    …just like in  the OT!

     

    Even more to the point, Allah doesn’t care whether people love him, obey him, or anything. He is quixotic in whether he will accept one into his paradise. PERHAPS if you’ve done something to particularly please or honour him you MIGHT.

    yeah, this is NO different from the OT.  God plucks someone out (David, Gideon) and loves ‘em, prospers ‘em.  In David’s case,  He loves him no matter what: adultery, murder.  In Gideon’s case it’s purely a matter of might: He has chosen His champion, He guarantees victory against all odds!  And Gideon ends his days as an idolater.  And even in the NT, not every one who acknowledges Jesus as Lord shall enter into the Kingdom.

    Consider communism. It, too, dictates and confines every aspect of human life. Check out NorKo for the ultimate expression of communism. Not notably different from islam.

    There was always a deliberate attempt to make Communism structurally similar to a religion.  And if you visited the USSR, you’da  seen  the new “icon”-Lenin’s Head!  displayed everywhere.  Plus the shrine of his tomb in the Kremlin, with the miraculously preserved body!  No, that was more like Catholicism…

    Islam is a Western religion, being the stepchildof Judaism and Christianity, because it depends on a revelation: God entering history, ( like He did with Moses and then throughJesus)  and believes history is a progress, not an endless wheel.  Believers are to be warriors, in Christianity’s case through conversion, in Islam’s case through conquest and the choice of submission or the sword— to bring about the desired, though dreadful, consumation, the dies  irae, , and the end, of history, of time!  That is what distinguishes the Western religions from the Eastern.  That was my original point i this post.

    2+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
  19. Hypatia:

    Devereaux:

    MJBubba:

    Devereaux:
    The first mistake is to consider islam a religion. It is an ideology with religious overtones.

    I get your point, but this is not helpful.

    Of course Islam is a religion.   It is a religion that has built-in political policies and judicial system and educational system and financial system requirements on adherents.   Islam is a religion that dictates and confines every aspect of human life.

    yes I agree it’s a religion….so effin* what?  If we say “all religions are worthy of our respect”we’re sayin they’re all a buncha hooey .( Fine with me…) 

    ….

    This springs from a twisted understanding of the Creator.   In Islam, Allah’s decrees are good because they come from Allah.   This is the opposite of Judaism and Christianity, which say that G-d’s decrees are good because He is good.

    uh..exactly how are your second and fourth sentences different?  In the OT, “righteousness” is obey ing Jahweh, , even if He commands you to kill your son, slaughter every last man woman and child and animal of the enemy tribe.

    And, in fact, Jewish and Christian teachings about G-d’s commands are that He wants people to be good and to do good to each other, whereas in Islam it does not matter if adherents do good; the only important thing is if they are obedient.

    …just like in  the OT!

     

    Even more to the point, Allah doesn’t care whether people love him, obey him, or anything. He is quixotic in whether he will accept one into his paradise. PERHAPS if you’ve done something to particularly please or honour him you MIGHT.

    yeah, this is NO different from the OT.  God plucks someone out (David, Gideon) and loves ‘em, prospers ‘em.  In David’s case,  He loves him no matter what: adultery, murder.  In Gideon’s case it’s purely a matter of might: He has chosen His champion, He guarantees victory against all odds!  And Gideon ends his days as an idolater.  And even in the NT, not every one who acknowledges Jesus as Lord shall enter into the Kingdom.

    I did not think it was so easy to miss, but evidently it is.  The Koran does not talk about the goodness of Allah; it simply stresses that Allah is sovereign and obedience is demanded.   If anything is described as good, it is good because it is Allah’s command.   The Koran does not speak of good as an objective measure the way it is used in the Bible.

    Whereas the Bible has many passages about the holiness, righteousness, goodness of G-d, and, in fact, describes all good things as having their root in Him.   Goodness, holiness and righteousness are spoken of as objective measures.

    Where G-d gave instructions to violence, it was only after great patience had been exhausted, and those to be killed had been judged for their iniquity.   None of that was capricious and none of it was open-ended the way it is in the Koran.

    If G-d was patient with David, it was because David had faith and was honestly repentant, humbling himself before G-d and the people.

    If Gideon erected a golden ephod as a war trophy and it then tempted his people to idolatry, that simply illustrates how shallow their faith was.

    And I do not see how it is any failing if G-d chose flawed people to carry out His instructions.   I pray that, as flawed as I am, He will also use me.

     

    Consider communism. It, too, dictates and confines every aspect of human life. Check out NorKo for the ultimate expression of communism. Not notably different from islam.

    There was always a deliberate attempt to make Communism structurally similar to a religion.  And if you visited the USSR, you’da  seen  the new “icon”-Lenin’s Head!  displayed everywhere.  Plus the shrine of his tomb in the Kremlin, with the miraculously preserved body!  No, that was more like Catholicism…

    Islam is a Western religion, being the stepchildof Judaism and Christianity, because it depends on a revelation: God entering history, ( like He did with Moses and then throughJesus)  and believes history is a progress, not an endless wheel.  Believers are to be warriors, in Christianity’s case through conversion, in Islam’s case through conquest and the choice of submission or the sword— to bring about the desired, though dreadful, consumation, the dies  irae, , and the end, of history, of time!  That is what distinguishes the Western religions from the Eastern.  That was my original point i this post.

    I won’t quarrel with you over East vs. West.   I would only observe that the Islamic imams do not consider themselves to be western; they rail and preach fire and brimstone against the West.

    2+

    Users who have liked this comment:

    • avatar
    • avatar
  20. ..And the point of my post was how stupid and uninformed they are to do so.  Their creed would not exist were it not for Judaism and Christianity.

    (I cant agree with you that all the people  God kills in the OT have been ”judged for their iniquity”.  Why did He try to kill Moses, who was saved only by Zipporah’s emergency circumcision of their son? What about Aaron’s sons?  That guy who tried to prevent the Ark of the Covenant from falling into the river? Jephthah’s daughter? )

    0

  21. Hypatia:
    ..And the point of my post was how stupid and uninformed they are to do so.  Their creed would not exist were it not for Judaism and Christianity.

    (I cant agree with you that all the people  God kills in the OT have been ”judged for their iniquity”.  Why did He try to kill Moses, who was saved only by Zipporah’s emergency circumcision of their son?

    Moses knew the rule about circumcision but had not acted to obey.   He was selected by G-d to be the prophet who would lead the Exodus, and had to be able to present himself to the Israelites as an Israelite, since they were going to be skeptical of Moses on account of his upbringing.   If Moses did not obey, he would not be able to serve as G-d’s prophet.   (And, if G-d did kill him, it would be a just killing, since Moses had committed murder.)

    What about Aaron’s sons?

    They treated the things of G-d as their personal possession, thinking their priestly office that they inherited from Aaron entitled them to manipulate G-d.   That is a grave sin, unacceptble in a priest, and one that potentially could derail the new religion under the freshly given Law of Moses.

    That guy who tried to prevent the Ark of the Covenant from falling into the river?

    Yeah, I see the difficulty.   You might think that protecting the Mercy Seat from the indignity of falling in the creek would not amount to arrogating the things of G-d.   But then you have to consider that the Mercy Seat was the locus of G-d in the midst of His people, dealing with them closely in a way He had not done before, and unlike anything until Jesus came to walk among us.   The Mercy Seat was a temporary dwelling for our holy G-d, and His holiness is so different from our unholiness that it consumes us.

    Which supports the teaching that nothing that cannot be made holy will exist in eternity in the place where G-d resides.

    Jephthah’s daughter?

    Another very hard lesson.   In this one we see that vows are to be taken seriously, that a vow to G-d is to be kept, as the daughter points out.   These people are living in a trusting relationship with God, and the daughter asks only for a brief time before the sacrifice to fulfill the vow.   She is trusting God in an amazing display of resolve and obedience.

    Clearly her death is not a retribution.   And also it was not decreed by G-d, so I do not understand why you include it in this list, except that perhaps you are just looking at an anti-Christian list of “violent G-d” verses.

    Since I believe that Jephtha’s daugher rests in eternity with G-d, the fact that her life was cut short is a trade-off in return for a powerful lesson for the people of G-d about living in a trusting relationship with Him.

    0

  22. MJBubba:

    Hypatia:
    ..And the point of my post was how stupid and uninformed they are to do so.  Their creed would not exist were it not for Judaism and Christianity.

    (I cant agree with you that all the people  God kills in the OT have been ”judged for their iniquity”.  Why did He try to kill Moses, who was saved only by Zipporah’s emergency circumcision of their son?

    Moses knew the rule about circumcision but had not acted to obey.   He was selected by G-d to be the prophet who would lead the Exodus, and had to be able to present himself to the Israelites as an Israelite, since they were going to be skeptical of Moses on account of his upbringing.   If Moses did not obey, he would not be able to serve as G-d’s prophet.   (And, if G-d did kill him, it would be a just killing, since Moses had committed murder.)

    …and God didnt know all this before the burning bush apparition?

    What about Aaron’s sons?

    They treated the things of G-d as their personal possession, thinking their priestly office that they inherited from Aaron entitled them to manipulate G-d.   That is a grave sin, unacceptble in a priest, and one that potentially could derail the new religion under the freshly given Law of Moses.

    As I recall they had been instructed that their Prime Directive was never to let the sacred fire go out.  They woke up and found it extinguished. ( By God, I presume.)   So, they relit it. Okay, if you look at this as a parable, your interpretation makes sense.  But if you look at it as two newly-minted priests staring at each other in the cold dawn: oh JEEZ! or whatever—-what  do we do?— it doesn’t make sense.

    That guy who tried to prevent the Ark of the Covenant from falling into the river?

    Yeah, I see the difficulty.   You might think that protecting the Mercy Seat from the indignity of falling in the creek would not amount to arrogating the things of G-d.   But then you have to consider that the Mercy Seat was the locus of G-d in the midst of His people, dealing with them closely in a way He had not done before, and unlike anything until Jesus came to walk among us.   The Mercy Seat was a temporary dwelling for our holy G-d, and His holiness is so different from our unholiness that it consumes us.

    …and God, knowing that poor man’s good intentions, couldn’ta  protected him or restored him?  Unlike in other mythologies, where to touch the divine presence or see a deity is certain, pretty much automatic death, there are many times where our God does spare people in such circumstances.  Just sayin’…

    Which supports the teaching that nothing that cannot be made holy will exist in eternity in the place where G-d resides.

    Jephthah’s daughter?

    Another very hard lesson.   In this one we see that vows are to be taken seriously, that a vow to G-d is to be kept, as the daughter points out.   These people are living in a trusting relationship with God, and the daughter asks only for a brief time before the sacrifice to fulfill the vow.   She is trusting God in an amazing display of resolve and obedience.

    Clearly her death is not a retribution.   And also it was not decreed by G-d, so I do not understand why you include it in this list, except that perhaps you are just looking at an anti-Christian list of “violent G-d” verses.

    Since I believe that Jephtha’s daugher rests in eternity with G-d, the fact that her life was cut short is a trade-off in return for a powerful lesson for the people of G-d about living in a trusting relationship with Him.

    She became a human sacrifice to God because of her father’s rash vow.  Common theme in folklore: never promise someone, human or divine, that you will do, or give,  anything, anything at all! if only they accomplish your goal for you!   That never  ends well, (unless someone shows up to rescue the promisor like in the Rumpelstiltskin story..)   And how can you say God didnt decree her death? Surely He coulda made a dog or something run ahead of her?  My point is, she was an innocent victim, whatever mistakes dad may have made.  She’s like King Midas’ daughter.

    0

  23. Hypatia:

    MJBubba:

    Hypatia:
    ..And the point of my post was how stupid and uninformed they are to do so.  Their creed would not exist were it not for Judaism and Christianity.

    (I cant agree with you that all the people  God kills in the OT have been ”judged for their iniquity”.  Why did He try to kill Moses, who was saved only by Zipporah’s emergency circumcision of their son?

    Moses knew the rule about circumcision but had not acted to obey.   He was selected by G-d to be the prophet who would lead the Exodus, and had to be able to present himself to the Israelites as an Israelite, since they were going to be skeptical of Moses on account of his upbringing.   If Moses did not obey, he would not be able to serve as G-d’s prophet.   (And, if G-d did kill him, it would be a just killing, since Moses had committed murder.)

    …and God didnt know all this before the burning bush apparition?

    How does it matter that G-d knows how it is going to play out ?

    What about Aaron’s sons?

    They treated the things of G-d as their personal possession, thinking their priestly office that they inherited from Aaron entitled them to manipulate G-d.   That is a grave sin, unacceptble in a priest, and one that potentially could derail the new religion under the freshly given Law of Moses.

    As I recall they had been instructed that their Prime Directive was never to let the sacred fire go out.  They woke up and found it extinguished. ( By God, I presume.)   So, they relit it. Okay, if you look at this as a parable, your interpretation makes sense.  But if you look at it as two newly-minted priests staring at each other in the cold dawn: oh JEEZ! or whatever—-what  do we do?— it doesn’t make sense.

    You can see it from multiple points of view.

    You have chosen to view it from the wrong point of view; as the lawyer for the defense, where you imagine G-d as the overreaching prosecutor.

    That guy who tried to prevent the Ark of the Covenant from falling into the river?

    Yeah, I see the difficulty.   You might think that protecting the Mercy Seat from the indignity of falling in the creek would not amount to arrogating the things of G-d.   But then you have to consider that the Mercy Seat was the locus of G-d in the midst of His people, dealing with them closely in a way He had not done before, and unlike anything until Jesus came to walk among us.   The Mercy Seat was a temporary dwelling for our holy G-d, and His holiness is so different from our unholiness that it consumes us.

    …and God, knowing that poor man’s good intentions, couldn’ta  protected him or restored him?

    Of course G-d could have acted differently.   In many other cases He brought the situation around in order to show mercy.   Sometimes we just have to let G-d be G-d.

     Unlike in other mythologies, where to touch the divine presence or see a deity is certain, pretty much automatic death, there are many times where our God does spare people in such circumstances.  Just sayin’…

    Yeah, we hear.   ‘Pagan Origins, Pagan Origins.’   I am not much interested in “other mythologies.”   By this turn of phrase that indicates you view the Bible as mythology, you raise my curiosity as to why you then use the adjective “our” in “our God” ?

    G-d is merciful.   Sometimes the mercy that matters is not apparent to us.

    And it is not difficult to find other narratives in the Bible in which people that we would not fault lost their lives, and the narrative serves as a lesson to the rest of the people.

    Which supports the teaching that nothing that cannot be made holy will exist in eternity in the place where G-d resides.

    Jephthah’s daughter?

    Another very hard lesson.   In this one we see that vows are to be taken seriously, that a vow to G-d is to be kept, as the daughter points out.   These people are living in a trusting relationship with God, and the daughter asks only for a brief time before the sacrifice to fulfill the vow.   She is trusting God in an amazing display of resolve and obedience.

    Clearly her death is not a retribution.   And also it was not decreed by G-d, so I do not understand why you include it in this list, except that perhaps you are just looking at an anti-Christian list of “violent G-d” verses.

    Since I believe that Jephtha’s daugher rests in eternity with G-d, the fact that her life was cut short is a trade-off in return for a powerful lesson for the people of G-d about living in a trusting relationship with Him.

    She became a human sacrifice to God because of her father’s rash vow.  Common theme in folklore: never promise someone, human or divine, that you will do, or give,  anything, anything at all! if only they accomplish your goal for you!   That never  ends well, (unless someone shows up to rescue the promisor like in the Rumpelstiltskin story..)

    Perhaps it is a common theme that rash vows seldom turn out well because rash vows seldom turn out well.   There is no need to go waving your arms that, because there are parallels, then the Bible must be derivative of the Pagans.

    And how can you say God didnt decree her death? Surely He coulda made a dog or something run ahead of her?  My point is, she was an innocent victim, whatever mistakes dad may have made.  She’s like King Midas’ daughter.

    Nobody disputes your point that she was an innocent victim.   In fact, that seems to be the reason that this incident is recounted for us in Scripture.  She was recognized as such by her father and everyone involved, such that a long time afterwards she was remembered:

    “…it became a custom in Israel 40 that the daughters of Israel went year by year to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in the year.”

    0

Leave a Reply